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Author Topic: Maine Bald Eagle Cam Analyses Discussion Thread  (Read 11776 times)
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Walpolema
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 07:40:47 AM »

Quote
From Bev.
5. if mom has an egg elsewhere , that she will eventually come to this site to help dad. they cannot do 2. But dad is devoted to this site, as this is where he saw the first eggs laid.

I guess my questions above go with #7 in Doralyn Analysis #1 project and so I would add to that list which Doralyn organized beautifully...
Bev. why do you think Mom would eventually join Dad again in this nest? Better food?

Doralyn I need to print out the comparison pictures and then I will make comment. Haven't had time yet.
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Nan
NancyM
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 07:49:12 AM »

Apr 4 at 0804H. Doralyn, I have only an 18" screen so the spots are not showing up well enough.
In NancyM's picture, I see one spot.

I think Will is talking about the picture I posted here (taken from Laurad's video):
http://www.window-on-wildlife.com/index.php?topic=102.msg12516#msg12516

In that picture,  I do not see the same spot(s) as we have noted on Mom - I see something a bit different.  Plus, that eagle has a reddish area (?blood torn tissue?) over the left nare that I have not noted on Mom.

I am inclined to agree with bev. that the March 31 attack was not Mom. I have seen Dad Hornby be a bit aggressive toward Mom Hornby a couple of times (pecking the back of her head, once, last season) but I would find it extraordinary for one mate to attack the other this way.


Doralyn, thank you for organizing the questions - I do love piecing together a puzzle!
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bev.
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2011, 08:11:27 AM »

[
Bev. why do you think Mom would eventually join Dad again in this nest? Better food?

[

Because dad is so committed here , she may eventually give in. this is just a thought. I was thinking the same as you, in regards to another egg somewhere. If there was another egg, dad would not have seen it as he was here, thus his commitment here.

I guess we will all have to wait. Just hope the weather improves
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Doralyn
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2011, 11:14:45 AM »

Great posts that are one of each kind you can make here:

NancyM: Doing an Analysis #1 post which she can come back to at any time and add to or alter because, bottom line, they are her perceptions, and they might change. Remember, keep your response to ONE post, come back as many times as you need to.  

NancyM, I think those question marks are already answered by you in the post, so maybe you could see where you answered your own queston above where you put "?"" and replace the question marks with what you think already, or when you post again, if you do and if there is a change in what you think.

bev: Doing a discussion post, putting out some possibilities that might get into an analysis question in the furture.
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Doralyn
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2011, 11:18:37 AM »

I made this post on the Main Maine Daily Discussion Thread, so just also posting it here for the record, and for anyone who is wandering by to see and read if they haven't already. eek! nod2


I am trying to get second analysis question going in my mind, but the report up above is making me think that the one I thought to do next shouldn't wait any further to get up and running.  (I had thought we might just work on the simple look at 13 pictures and respond first for a day or so to get the process straight.)

All of us are adjusting right off to the routine "over there" and it has helped me to get feedback in the responses so far.  This morning I addressed some issues that I felt were not clear enough to the first three people jumpinng in with abandon and getting it underway.  Marvelous courage in that...and I learned both new insights on the data set, and had new thoughts on the process and addressed those first to make it clearer and easier for all of us.

So, for the next question, which has to do with Mom's physical status I'm trying to write a good question to get good answers from the people who participate on the Analysis Thread. I have some toughts, but I believe the richness of people's ideas come out of this broad, free wheeling, sometimes verbal roller derby, over here, at our base thread.

I haven't answered the Analysis question #1 yet myself because I don't want to influence people in either their own thought processes, or in their perceptions and findings in the data set.  I feel some of that concern now in asking for your help writing the nest (oops, Freudian verbal gaff, I meant next bigsmile) question, but I'm hearing stuff all over the pages here that are important to include in writing the question.  And I want to hear more.

Here are the thoughts I have to begin putting together a formal study question:

I have a set of pictures that I got on March 31st that struck me as showing an altered physical appearance in Mom.  I wish we had close-ups from before to compare but we all know why those shots are scarce. rolleyes2

The time to get those into the photo achive began long ago, but now is the time to put in what we have.  I will put those picture in the Picture thread to see in conjunction with this question.  Anyone else that has the time to do a series of dated pictures of Mom could do the same and I could reference them for study in Analysis #2.

What I have that triggers my questions makes me ask:
-is the skin color pale where it wasn't before?
-does she look dehydrated?
-is there any injury present, are we really looking for that?
-are there signs of stress (biological, envionmental, chemical) not the causes here because we can't possibly know, but the physical signs that could signal stress (the stuff doctors and nurses look for)
-signs of an illness
-signs of brain malfunction, alteration of brain chemistry


---------------------
Preview of Analysis #3 to also think about:
The 3rd analysis could deal only with observable behavior and we would look for anomalies and patterns, things like changes in movement pattern, changes in behavior, the big (no longer incubating) and the small (standing on the left side of the nest, by the tree, just an example of something I saw her do this week, and she has done it before...).
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"...that compulsive old scribbler, the universe, jots down another day."
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Doralyn
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2011, 11:36:04 AM »

Here is the perfect example of Will doing an update, into his original post (that is, the ONE POST for Analysis #1)

He has been updating faster than I can keep up with, super job Will. nod2

And now, Will, the skeptic, has done some homework and added enhanced pictures and come to  a Holy Moly eek! conclusion  below.  I will let you all make sure you find it for yourself.


Apr 4 at 0804H. Doralyn, I have only an 18" screen so the spots are not showing up very well. In pictire 1 I see one spot. 3 & 4 I see two spots. 5,6,7&13 I see one spot. Her left spot is above eye level at the angle of her head in set 1 and roughly mid way between the center line of her head and the left side.

In Laura's video at 43 secs could someone enhance that picture so the spot(if any) shows up better. Today, Apr 5th, I do not see a spot.

ETA. Later I was able to see a spot in NancyM's picture, Reply 81. I used Fastone to get the attack eagle's head and Nancy's eagle head appx the same size as shown here:



I think that the chances of another eagle besides Mom, having a spot in the same location is near zero. In both attacks Dad went on defence mode before she got there. Perhaps they had a fight away from the nest previously. In any case, he either knew from her approach that she was going to attack or he did not look carefully and needed to protect the nest and eggs.


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"...that compulsive old scribbler, the universe, jots down another day."
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Doralyn
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2011, 11:41:42 AM »

I have got a question for you , Will.  Is there any room in your thinking to come up wirh any other words to describe what happened in that event where you believe Mom came into the nest and she and Dad were in a physical altercation than "attack" question

And that is a question for me, and all of us. I'm thinking.......

ETA:  Dad at 2:41 pm  What is he thinking?  How does he think?  I wonder. I wonder where that is in an eagle brain.
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"...that compulsive old scribbler, the universe, jots down another day."
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bev.
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2011, 12:54:49 PM »

I  think necklines are different in  the pictures and you have to be careful when enlarging picutres.

come what may, I still do not believe that mom was the atttacker.

I have gone over and over the videos.
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Walpolema
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2011, 06:22:28 PM »

I have modified my first post (#5) with the questions Doralyn posed. I'm still working on them but wanted to get it up there.
Re: Will's pictures...the neckline doesn't look the same, but haven't found that particularly useful except on the original mom and Dad.
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Nan
Doralyn
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2011, 10:18:48 PM »

I can't believe where this day went.  I just read through all the responses to Analysis #1, and all the discussion.  I also know, because people have told me, that a number of people are pressed for time and want to do this but it might take a few days.  That's reasonble, and I'm really looking forward to what everyone thinks.

As I worked on things today, this thread, and stuff I need to do off the forum, I watched the cam for probably 90% of the time.  The drama continues, and I have several notepads of questions on the desk in front of my computer that I've added things to that we might study and analyze together.  I'm writing a new analysis, and invited all to help me today in a post on the regular discussion thread, and I copied that post here on p. 2.  Keep that in mind if you think of something. PM or email me if I have given you my email.

Note: Anyone can initiate an analysis.  You can write your own analysis question, decide what data, pictures, and/or tasks you want to give us, your participants, and post it in the thread.  Contact me when you are ready to give it a number and I will post your title in the index, in post #2. 

I am happy to help you if you have some aspect of the process you would like comments on, for example, how to pose the question, or, what kind of things you might suggest for data (pictures, videos, references, etc.). Contact me if you do.   


I hope people do this 'cause it's 1:12 am and I can't have too many more days like this one. (Well I did go to the town counsel tonight on a land issue, yet another one, to the north and west of me.  Yikes, I'm surrounded by changes.)  

Talk to you tomorrow.
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~wildernecss
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 07:23:38 PM »

Below is a response opinion regarding the following post, which had been edited to add comparison images:

ETA. Later I was able to see a spot in NancyM's picture, Reply 81. I used Fastone to get the incoming eagle's head and Nancy's eagle head appx the same size as shown here:



The spots visible in the above pictures do not, to me, seem to be in the same place on the birds shown.

In addition, I compared the way the feathers on the top of the head join at the beak. In the first picture, which is from Picture set #1, the feathers appear in a smooth parabola from one side of the head, to the beak area, and then to the other side of the head.

In the second picture, enlarged from the attack, the feathers on the top of the bird's head do not form the same smooth parabola, they actually seem to make a turn back up toward the top of the head directly above the center line of the beak. Some coloring of the feathers closest to the beak appears in the second picture, which does not appear in the first one, however this may just be lighting differences.

I based on my above analysis, I do not believe the two pictures from post #4 on page 1 are images of the same bird.
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Doralyn
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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 07:58:15 PM »

I see that people are still thinking about this question today.  Thanks for participating and I hope each of you get something out of the process and from each other as well.
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willpatt
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 09:32:31 PM »

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NancyM
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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 12:43:15 PM »

I think the occurrence of a small dark feather (spot or dot) on an eagle's head is not that rare. For example, Dad Hornby has one, Mom Norfolk has one, as does Dad White Rock, and probably may more that we do not see close up.

For example, here is a collage I did of Dad Hornby (click though for larger versions).

Dad Hornby by aurospio, on Flickr


To me the behavioral aspect is much more perplexing (the idea of an eagle attacking its mate in that way).


Doralyn, I think that the other questions you have posed about Mom's physical condition are far, far  beyond what we can even try to answer.  I do not think that any of us understand eagle physiology well enough to even discuss such possibilities, and surely not from what one could see on a webcam. Even trained rehabbers viewing eagles via webcam cannot diagnose such possibilities - they always want to examine the bird in hand even for physical injuries.
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Doralyn
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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 01:28:52 PM »

NancyM, I think you are right to think that we could not make any deep determinations about Mom's physical condition. We could only see visual things, and changes over time if they occur.  I came up with that question because questions I was having about her appearance in a series of pictures I am posting to the picture thread which suggested possible, and I do mean only possible, changes in what I had been seeing.  Another reason to do this, for me, would be to establish a data base of pictures and observations, collected in one spot, to look back at in the future.  But, I really appreciate your thoughts and it reminds me to be cautious in drawing conclusions.

I really love the pictures of Dad Hornby.  And it is interesting that we are coming up with a number of instances of those dark head marks these days.  I'm sure they were probably always there on some eagles, but I also know I think of the head being white and forget, maybe, to really look at the white, for the black, if it's there.  Thanks for posting them.

And I agree with you when you said, "To me the behavioral aspect is much more perplexing (the idea of an eagle attacking its mate in that way)."


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"...that compulsive old scribbler, the universe, jots down another day."
  - "Moose in the Morning, Northern Maine," Mona Van Duyn
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