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Author Topic: Maine Bald Eagle Cam Analyses Discussion Thread  (Read 11778 times)
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JudyB
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« on: April 03, 2011, 06:01:16 PM »

This thread is to provide a place to analyze photos and other information about the Maine eagles, and to provide links to relevant s'caps and other data from the Discussion thread and the Screenshots thread.
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2011, 06:10:54 PM »

This new thread, the Maine Bald Eagle Cam Analyses Discussion Thread has been created to facilitate the shared, cooperative analysis of issues arising from important questions people have and have been discussing on the Maine Bald Eagle Nest Dailly Discussion thread. The idea is to take that kind of detailed discussion to a place just for this endeavor, and to leave the Daily Discussion thread for our community get together every day, to post the updates and information about the life at the nest and enjoy the eagles and our friends there.  

When things emerge that a number of members might want to delve into, if there is interest, we can do that here and leave the Maine Nest Disscussion for its original intent there.

Anyone can initiate an analysis.  You can write your own analysis question, decide what data, pictures, and/or tasks you want to give us, your participants, and post it in the thread.  Contact me when you are ready to give it a number and I will post your title in the index, in post #2. 

I am happy to help you if you have some aspect of the process you would like comments on, for example, how to pose the question, or, what kind of things you might suggest for data (pictures, videos, references, etc.). Contact me if you do.   


There will be two parallel things going on here on this thread:

1. Formal analyses posed by members with a set-up context described by the author, and a formal question (In the first proposed analysis, I, as the proposing member, have broken the over-all question into 6 questions plus a 7th for further questions for analysis).  

Those who wish to participate in any of the proposed analyses may  post ONE response to each of the formal analysis questions, one post/per participant/per analysis.  That ONE post may be revised multiple times.

Place a label at the top of your analysis post to signal the number and title of the analysis you are doing. That will help you find your posts, and will also help the proposer of the Analysis Question to find the specific responses from the participants doing that particular analysis.  In the beginning we will have one analysis to start, but in the future, more than one could be ongoing at the same time. 

2. Discussion of everything related to all analyses, including responding to participants' answers in their submited formal responses to the formal questions in the analyses.  
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Analysis # 1

During the early stages of incubation by the eagle pair at Cam 1 nest, an altercation or attack occured on the nest between an unknown eagle and Dad.  Videos and pictures raised some questions about whether the unknown eagle could be Mom.  While that seemed like an odd or unexpected thing to happen, the question exists, could Mom have been the eagle that came to the nest on the afternoon of March 31st and got into a physical altercation with Dad?  

A couple of members raised this possibility, Sherri and myself (Doralyn), and have looked at and discussed the pictures I captured of the unknown eagle's and of Mom's heads.

This was the initial comparison done (from p. 245, post #3669 of the Daily Discussion thread):

I believe Dad is on the bottom here, at 41 video seconds:


Dad on the bottom here, at 43 video seconds:


4:15 pm, March 26:
My capture of Dad on the left refusing to leave right away, Mom on the right, demanding:


It is known that Mom has some black marks on her head.  The picture which we have of the unknown eagle has a faint mark on the head. It is difficult to tell if both marks are there, and also can't determine if the mark we think we see is where we know it is in our experience of seeing Mom on the nest.

So, there remains an open question about who the unknown eagle is.  If it were Mom, that would alter our perceptions and prior knowledge of how pairs relate, and it would raise a whole lot of questions about why what happened occurred

The questions Sherri and I discussed were is it possible that the pictues above indicates Mom is the unknown eagle? Are there spots visible on the unknown eagle?  Do the pictures we do have of the unknown eagle seem similar to or different than the picture of Mom? And, finally, are the spots on the unknown head there, whiped out by the glare of the light, or absent?

We agree that there is a faint spot on the unknown eagle and that the light probably played a part in making it hard to see.  We could not draw either conclusion: that it was or was not Mom.

Out of that discussion, I have drawn up the following focused questions about a set of pictures of Mom captured during the afternoon of April 3, 2011.  Those questions are the only ones to focus on now, but in the process if you develop other questions, please note them in your response to questions 7.


THE QUESTIONS FOR THE ANALYSIS OF PICTURE SET #1

The link below is to p. 6, Post # 89 of the Picture Thread.

Picture Set #1 on the Picture Thread

ETA: Please keep your responses to this analysis (i.e., Analysis #1) all in ONE POST FOR EACH PARTICIPANT.  If you want to add to your response after you first post it, please use "ETA:" and the date and post the new material. For future analyses, use one post  for each analysis.

Discussion amongst participants should not be in the post contributing responses to the formal question(s) but be done in separate posts and is a great thing to do. Do that as often as is needed to contribute to that part of this endeavor.  

1.  What do do you see in these pictures that are identifying
     characteristics of Mom's head?
 
2.  Do you see a pattern or patterns, in the spots across all the
     pictures?

     Are there different patterns to the spots on Mom's in various
     positions? (draw or describe them)

3.  What effects do you see on the visibility of the spots?

4.  What effect does light play in altering the captures of Mom's
     head?

     Which pictures do you see that in?

     Does that occur across the whole picture set?
  
5.  Do you think position of the head alters what you see?  
    
     Which pictures(s) do you think that happens in?
    
     Are the effects similar for similar pictures?  
    
     Does that hold true for all similar pictures?

6.  What further data can we collect to analyze and possibly find
     answers to these questions.

7.  What questons do you have for further study:


Suggestions:
a.  Open two windows, one with the picture set which is in post #89 on p. 6 of the Picture Thread and one on this thread.

b.  Copy and past the numbered questions above into a post you have open on this thread.  Put you responses under the appropriate questions.
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Doralyn
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2011, 04:34:05 AM »

Index of Analyses

Analysis #1: Post #1, p. 1, begun April 4, 2011

Analysis #2 (pending)
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Doralyn
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2011, 04:50:28 AM »

Index, continued
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2011, 05:36:49 AM »

Apr 4 at 0804H. Doralyn, I have only an 18" screen so the spots are not showing up very well. In pictire 1 I see one spot. 3 & 4 I see two spots. 5,6,7&13 I see one spot. Her left spot is above eye level at the angle of her head in set 1 and roughly mid way between the center line of her head and the left side.

In Laura's video at 43 secs could someone enhance that picture so the spot(if any) shows up better. Today, Apr 5th, I do not see a spot.

ETA. Later I was able to see a spot in NancyM's picture, Reply 81. I used Fastone to get the incoming eagle's head and Nancy's eagle head appx the same size as shown here:



Today, Apr 8th, NancyM has added a post which shows that many other eagles have spots on their heads. I had made a wrong assumption that eagles would be very rare with that spot. Nancy has pointed out that an eagle at Hornby, White Rock and Norfolk have spots on their heads.

My opinion now is that I have no idea of the identity of the intruder eagle.

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Walpolema
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2011, 07:33:25 PM »

Discussion 1: (Doralyn suggested I post my thoughts here) regarding potential identity of the attacking eagle and Mom's behavior since the human taunting and bad weather set in. Alice through the Looking Glass: What if Mother Eagle isn't the slacker we suppose her to be? What if she got stuck in another location (nest) during the taunting and laid a third egg there which she has since been herself desperately taking care of by herself? (I think maybe Chris CLC has also hinted at this possibility but I can't find the post now). If so - it is this latest egg that she has "bonded" with and now when she comes to the nest she tries to get Dad off to go help her with the egg which is foremost in her present consciousness. Could she be be desperate enough for help that she would attack him?  It is probably too much to expect eagles to have motives in the human sense of the word. It sounds to me as if this mother's behavior (that which is visible to us) has everyone perplexed, so maybe no scenario is thinking too far out of the box (nest) right now. This is just my optimistic attempt to give Mom a heroic portrait rather than the muddled hormonally lost look we see when she comes to our view. It attempts to answer the question of why she would seem to not want Dad to sit on these eggs. But Will has said all along that she didn't seem intensely engaged in the nest to begin with. So why would the only intensity she has shown of late be to get Dad off the nest? Does she think he is hoarding food beneath him?  Truth be known I doubt there is another egg elsewhere and suppose she has post traumatic stress syndrome of some sort from something that happened while she was absent, but I can't rule that out either. puzzled2

1.  What do do you see in these pictures that are identifying
     characteristics of Mom's head?
In comparison with Dad:
- longer beak
- spots: 2 on the top of her head, one on her left check edge of the cheek area furthest from her beak

 
2.  Do you see a pattern or patterns, in the spots across all the
     pictures?

yes, 2 spots on the top of head over each eye brow toward the middle to rear top of head
     Are there different patterns to the spots on Mom's in various
     positions? (draw or describe them)
I think there is consistency in placement of the spots in the captures they are visible in

3.  What effects do you see on the visibility of the spots?

spots are easier to see when direct sunlight is not on her head. Note Lori's video in post 86 just previous. (7:14 pm on 4/2)

4.  What effect does light play in altering the captures of Mom's
     head?
twightlight pictures may be more accurate? In the sunlight the shadows may make features like the boney brow ridge look more pronounced than it actually is.

In capture in #81 of the fight...the eagle on top does appear to have at least one of the spots in a similar if not same place as Mom. Perhaps there is a cheek spot similar to Mom's.  BUT, I think the brow ridge is more pronounced in the "attack" eagle. Then again maybe it would be more pronounced in attack mode.

     Which pictures do you see that in?

     Does that occur across the whole picture set?
  
5.  Do you think position of the head alters what you see?  

2 top spots visible with head down in partial shade:
still working on this...my print out numbered pictures in strange ways...
    
     Which pictures(s) do you think that happens in?
    
     Are the effects similar for similar pictures?  
    
     Does that hold true for all similar pictures?

6.  What further data can we collect to analyze and possibly find
     answers to these questions.

In the Loch scottish osprey nest they are doing closeups of the osprey's iris to identify the female who just returned as "the lady of the Loch".
I wonder if BRI is trying this with close ups of our eagles' eyes.

7.  What questons do you have for further study:

Did the "fight" happen before or after the human taunting and whistling episode?
Would human interference make eagles behave in new ways to each other who were in an already established relationship? IE Could the whistling have turned Mom off from both dad and the nest? Esp. if she was the subject of taunting off camera that we couldn't see??? What if she was directly "assaulted" either physically or verbally?
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2011, 04:05:01 AM »

What if she got stuck in another location (nest) during the taunting and laid a third egg there which she has since been herself desperately taking care of by herself? (I think maybe Chris CLC has also hinted at this possibility but I can't find the post now). If so - it is this latest egg that she has "bonded" with and now when she comes to the nest she tries to get Dad off to go help her with the egg which is foremost in her present consciousness.
Nan, thank you for your thoughts. Very interesting.
I have believed for years that there is another nest somewhere fairly nearby and I know CLC does as well.  If she did lay the 3rd egg elsewhere,  my thought would be that
she comes to this nest to get Dad to get food for her vs. helping with incubating.  This particular nest has been used as kind of a "feeding station" through the years. Not sure
that I think she was the attacker and don't know that I think there is an egg at another nest as I haven't had time to do really serious thinking and comparisons of my own yet.
However, interesting thought mainly because she was somewhat interested in the beginning of the egg laying process.
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2011, 04:36:42 AM »

6:00 am Tuesday, April 5, 2011

NOTE:  Please keep ALL your responses to Question #1 in ONE POST by using the "Modifying" feature on the post.

Thank you Will and Nan for participating in Analysis #1.

This discussion is ongoing and I hope people will join the search for understanding and knowledge.

WILL, do I have these points from your response correct question:

1. You cannot see the marks very well, if at all, but you do see marks on some of the 13 pictures in Picture Set #1.  You mentioned other people's pictures than the ones in the set which I captured, could you reference where they are in your post?

2.  You say the marks appear to move around with her change in position as in: "see one spot which appears to move side to side as she turns her head". Could you go back to your post and add the pictures #'s where you see this?"

3.  You see "see one spot at 43 secs only " in Laura's video.

4.  You state: "The attacking eagle having a spot like that makes me suspicous that it could be Mom"  To clarify, you think it could be Mom.  Is that correct?
-------------------

NAN, Here is a summary of your points as I understand them:

1.  Mom may have gotten "stuck in another location (nest) during the taunting and laid a third egg there".  She may be "desperately taking care of" this egg "by herself". She may be "bonded" with this egg  and coming to the nest to try and "get Dad off to go help her with the egg which is foremost in her present consciousness."

2. You asked this quesion: Could she be be desperate enough for help that she would attack him?  

3.  You asked this question:  "Could she be be desperate enough for help that she would attack him?"  

4.  You asked this question:  " why would the only intensity she has shown of late be to get Dad off the nest?"5.  You asked this question: " suppose she has post traumatic stress syndrome of some sort from something that happened while she was absent?"

5:  You stated: "Truth be known I doubt there is another egg elsewhere..., but I can't rule that out "

DID I MISS anything that should be in this summary list, Nan?

NAN, is there some reason you did not address the picture set in this analysis about Mom's ID markings on her head and the effects of light and position?  If you do go back and answer them, please ADD them to your one post above.

Here are the questions from above about those pictures. It is easy to copy and past them.  I just did without leaving this reply window by scrolling down below to post#1 to get them.

Quote
Picture Set #1 on the Picture Thread


1.  What do do you see in these pictures that are identifying
     characteristics of Mom's head?
 
2.  Do you see a pattern or patterns, in the spots across all the
     pictures?

     Are there different patterns to the spots on Mom's in various
     positions? (draw or describe them)

3.  What effects do you see on the visibility of the spots?

4.  What effect does light play in altering the captures of Mom's
     head?

     Which pictures do you see that in?

     Does that occur across the whole picture set?
  
5.  Do you think position of the head alters what you see?  
    
     Which pictures(s) do you think that happens in?
    
     Are the effects similar for similar pictures?  
    
     Does that hold true for all similar pictures?

6.  What further data can we collect to analyze and possibly find
     answers to these questions.

7.  What questons do you have for further study:

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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2011, 04:44:06 AM »


NOTE:  Please keep ALL your responses to Question #1 in ONE POST by using the "Modifying" feature on the post.

Thank you Will and Nan for participating in Analysis #1.
I presume I have done something wrong here as you mention Will and Nan.
What modifying feature?   I can only modify my own post. Don't really have a lot of time so perhaps I should just post on the Discussion thread.
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2011, 04:44:35 AM »

SHERRI, I see your discussion response to Nan above. Are there questions from that you would like to add to the possible list of things to pose as formal questions for study in what you have said question

And, is there some reason you did not address the picture set in this analysis about Mom's ID markings on her head and the effects of light and position question
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2011, 04:50:13 AM »

SHERRI, I see your discussion response to Nan above. Are there questions from that you would like to add to the possible list of things to pose as formal questions for study in what you have said question

And, is there some reason you did not address the picture set in this analysis about Mom's ID markings on her head and the effects of light and position question
No, I have no other questions.  I was responding to Nan's thought about Mom having an egg at another nest.
I did not address the picture set because, as mentioned above, I haven't had the time to do my comparisons.
I thought this was a place to discuss more in detail regarding various thoughts, as Nan did.   I didn't realize it was only for your analysis questions.
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2011, 05:13:21 AM »


NOTE:  Please keep ALL your responses to Question #1 in ONE POST by using the "Modifying" feature on the post.

Thank you Will and Nan for participating in Analysis #1.
I presume I have done something wrong here as you mention Will and Nan.
What modifying feature?   I can only modify my own post. Don't really have a lot of time so perhaps I should just post on the Discussion thread.

Sherri, the "Modifying" feature on the post" is just exactly what you said, "modify my own post", hit the Modify button and type the new stuff into the existing post.

 I am asking that responses to the formal questions posed in Analysis #1 be put into ONE POST FOR EACH PARTICIPANT, and if anyone wants to add to his or her response to that analysis, to just add it at the bottom of that one post, as many times as needed to to respond to the particular analysis. 

The discussion you did with Nan is not a response to the Analysis #1 questions, and that is fine and great to do.  I did ask above if there might be questions you'd like to see formally turned into a separate analysis. And if there are any analyses you want to construct yourself, go for it!  Set up an analysis, we'll give it a number and I will put it in the Index of Analyses. bigsmile
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2011, 06:10:30 AM »

It is great to have Will, Nan, and Sherri beginning the process of discussing the Analysis #1 question.

I have added the following to the original post (post#1) to clarify the procedures for submitting a response to that formal question, and for contributing to an onging discussion of the issues that question raises.

ETA: Please keep your responses to this analysis (i.e., Analysis #1) all in ONE POST FOR EACH PARTICIPANT.  If you want to add to your response after you first post it, please use "ETA:" and the date and post the new material. For future analyses, use one post  for each analysis.

Discussion amongst participants should not be in the post contributing responses to the formal question(s) but be done in separate posts and is a great thing to do. Do that as often as is needed to contribute to that part of this endeavor. 
 

There are two parallel things going on here on this thread:

1. Formal analyses posed by members with a set-up context described by the author, and a formal question (that in my first proposed analysis is broken out into 6 questions plus a 7th for further questions for analysis).  Those who wish to participate in that analysis will post ONE response to the formal analysis question(s) that may be revised multiple times

2. Discussion of everything related to all analyses, including responding to participants' answers in their submited formal responses to the formal questions in the analyses. 

(Today there is only one analysis on the table, Analysis #1, concerning the spots on Mom's head and the effects of light, positioning, and other factors if perceived.)

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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 07:04:48 AM »

I am probably not doing this in the right place andI apologize

Thoughts:  Attacking eagle was not mom. dad was too defensive at the onset. It was the posture of one being attacked by an intruder.(have witnessed many fights personally with falocns, same idea). shadows , light, sun glare, play eye tricks,


2. I have thought over the last few days that mom had to drop an egg during storm and she was not  near enough to her nest and if there is another nest close by, or some place she could drop egg safely, that is where she dropped it. they will drop their eggs if they have to. And that is why she is not attached to this nest anymore.

3. Those that think the attacking eagle was mom, it could have been just her trying to get back on nest to drop her egg. but I really believe that the attacking eagle was not mom.

4. Attacking eagle was a female. Not very aggressive for it to have been a male. A male to male encounter would have been gruesome.

5. if mom has an egg elsewhere , that she will eventually come to this site to help dad. they cannot do 2. But dad is devoted to this site, as this is where he saw the first eggs laid.

sorry that is all the time I have to write down. I have lots of thoughts but it is all speculation.
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 07:37:53 AM »

1.  What do do you see in these pictures that are identifying characteristics of Mom's head?
I see two dark spots (?feathers). These are clearest in pictures #3 and #4.

2.  Do you see a pattern or patterns, in the spots across all the pictures?

Are there different patterns to the spots on Mom's in various
     positions? (draw or describe them)

Picture # 1 - one (central) dark spot
Picture #7 - dark spot over right eye
Pictures #3 and #4 - two dark spots one central (above her beak) and one to the right of that (Mom's right)
Pictures #2  #5, #6, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13:  Shadows and light make it hard to tell


3.  What effects do you see on the visibility of the spots?
Natural light and shadows, position of Mom' head, and (If there had been wind) - all would affect how the "spots" would look.

4.  What effect does light play in altering the captures of Mom's head?
Too much light makes the spots impossible to see (picture is "blown out").

     Which pictures do you see that in?
Pictures #2  #5, #6, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13

     Does that occur across the whole picture set?
  not sure what "that" refers to - if you mean does the light affect visibility across all pictures, yes

5.  Do you think position of the head alters what you see?
Yes
   
     Which pictures(s) do you think that happens in?
Compare angle of her head in pictures  #1 (one spot), #3 (two spots) and #7(the other spot).
   
     Are the effects similar for similar pictures?
?
   
     Does that hold true for all similar pictures?
? probably


6.  What further data can we collect to analyze and possibly find answers to these questions.

Do you mean data from picture set #1? Perhaps neck feathers and shape of beak, characteristics about the eyes?  Rather hard to see on s'caps, though.

If data from other pictures, I have seen other pictures that show Mom's two spots better than the ones taken in full sunlight and shadow, as set #1 pictures were. For example,  Lori's animation, from April 2, posted here: http://www.window-on-wildlife.com/index.php?topic=102.msg12884#msg12884


7.  What questons do you have for further study:
What do we see on the attacking eagle (in Laurad's video from March 31) that makes us think it is or is not Mom?
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